IETF
rfcform@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, 7 November 2012< ^ >
stpeter has set the subject to: RFC Format BoF, IETF 84 | audio at http://ietf84streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf846.m3u
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[19:43:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: RFC Format BoF: Requirements
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[19:47:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Questioning Assumptions
[19:47:44] Barry Leiba has set the subject to: RFC Format BoF, IETF 85 | audio at http://ietf85streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf858.m3u
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[19:48:51] <SM> Who was nitting?
[19:49:37] <nevil.brownlee> you mean, definition of 'neccessary?' That was Brian Carpenter
[19:49:45] <SM> Thanks
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[19:50:11] <Barry Leiba> Hahahahaha... 6 people at the mic just to argue about the hum.
[19:50:22] <Wes George> I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised that a meeting about RFC formats would rathole this quickly ;-)
[19:50:23] <Barry Leiba> 7
[19:50:25] <stpeter> I'll be happy to relay questions and comments from the jabber room to the meeting
[19:50:29] <SM> barry :-)
[19:50:49] <nevil.brownlee> thanks peter
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[19:51:03] <SM> Thanks Peter
[19:51:40] <SM> Can I ask if the RFC Editor has a policy about negotiating with terrorists? :-)
[19:51:50] <stpeter> SM: you caught that comment, eh?
[19:52:09] <SM> Oh, I usually pick the spicy meeting stuff:)
[19:52:21] <stpeter> heh
[19:52:38] <SM> mic: "I care"
[19:52:45] <SM> and I am not in the room
[19:52:54] <Wes George> "bikeshedding the hum
[19:52:56] <Wes George> lol
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[19:54:00] <DanY> Oh, man...
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[19:54:27] <Barry Leiba> [Recalculating hum question..........]
[19:54:55] <Barry Leiba> [One can see Heather's gears turning....]
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[19:55:41] <Julian Reschke> hum
[19:55:50] <Wes George> hum
[19:56:01] <Barry Leiba> [roughly equal]
[19:56:08] <nico> it's about even
[19:58:02] <nico> i heard mumble readable too, but i assumed that what was meant was that some things can't be represented
[19:58:15] <SM> nico, same here
[19:58:32] <nico> i still assume that :)
[19:59:01] <SM> well, people are just making their arguments. It's the usual.
[19:59:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Existing Requirements to be kept
[19:59:55] <stpeter> SM: you are so jaded already ;-)
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[20:00:14] <=JeffH> we are discussing draft-rfc-format-flanagan-01 ?
[20:00:21] <stpeter> yes
[20:00:36] <nico> even lower layer ppl might care about faithful representation of names that can't be so represented in US-ASCII
[20:01:24] <SM> nico, I read that as the argument for the "sufficient".
[20:01:37] <nico> right, so did i
[20:02:20] <stpeter> nico: yes, I think hildjj was thinking primarily about internationalization in text and examples
[20:03:06] <hildjj> stpeter: yes. also, i continue to try to find a way to label the camps that are not age-ist.
[20:03:23] <Tobia Castaldi> Hi all, Meetecho is avalaible at http://www.meetecho.com/ietf85/rfcform if you are already logged in the rfcform jabber room, please use a different nick name when joining Meetecho
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[20:04:28] <Barry Leiba> We should make it upper-case ASCII, the way &deity intended!
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[20:06:23] <nico> no, let VMS die already
[20:07:09] <nico> :)
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[20:08:36] <hildjj-meetecho> THE DEITY INTENDED CERTAIN WORDS TO BE RED.
[20:08:51] <Barry Leiba> NO, BLUE!
[20:09:00] <hildjj> heh
[20:09:04] <tlyu@mit.edu> gold leaf illuminated
[20:09:13] <hildjj> can't do gold leaf in the current format.
[20:09:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: New Requirements
[20:09:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: RFC Editor Requirements
[20:09:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: New Requirements
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[20:11:04] <Julian Reschke> mic: fixed-width fonts??? why?
[20:11:44] <SM> Julian, ASCII art
[20:12:15] <Julian Reschke> SM: that's fine, but it doesn't follow for prose
[20:12:38] <SM> Julian, then you need multiple-font support
[20:13:10] <Julian Reschke> SM: yes; that's not a problem
[20:13:18] <Wes George> agreed. I've said on multiple occasions that there needs to be a metadata identifying where fixed-width was REQUIRED, on the assumption that it was NOT necessary throughout
[20:13:39] <Wes George> this would leave it to the presentation formatting everywhere except where it would break things that need fixed-width for formatting
[20:13:51] <Julian Reschke> sm: i note that the slide on the screen uses proportional fonts :-)
[20:14:02] <Wes George> feel free to summarize this comment at the mic along with Julian's
[20:14:14] <SM> Well, I am looking at the slides in Flash. :-)
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[20:15:38] <Julian Reschke> mic: fied-width doesn't make sense in particular wrt readability
[20:15:47] <SM> Julian, agreed
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[20:16:00] <Wes George> +1 again
[20:16:15] <nico> if i am to read these in a tty then i want fixed-width fonts
[20:17:03] <stpeter> julian: we have a looong line at the mic
[20:17:05] <stpeter> but I will relay
[20:17:12] <nico> if we want to say "must use a web browser" or similar then variable-width fonts are ok, but i will hate that requirement
[20:17:27] <SM> mic: Would the "format" still be line-oriented under the new requirements?
[20:17:39] <hildjj> larry is the lorax. he speaks for the trees
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[20:18:05] <stpeter> julian: JK just made the same point
[20:18:35] <Julian Reschke> anyway; allowing SVG but sticking to monospaced fonts is really really strange
[20:19:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> isn't this a matter of rendering?
[20:19:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> the format may contain info to say "this can be something else than monospaced"
[20:20:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> when converted through a stylesheet, some outputs may produce monospaced, html-based ones may not
[20:20:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> just a thought
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[20:21:30] <Wes George> that is a format
[20:21:37] <Wes George> that is not a requiprement for a canonical format
[20:21:54] <Andrew Sullivan> There is a deep confusion here between "canonical format" and "format for this use"
[20:22:00] <Wes George> yes.
[20:22:00] <SM> yes
[20:22:13] <Andrew Sullivan> people keep tripping over that (also on the list) because we're used to having a canonical format that is also the consumption format
[20:22:31] <Wes George> mic: perhaps we'd stop getting wrapped around the axle if we made it clear that the canonical format was NOT intended for consumption
[20:22:37] <Andrew Sullivan> I am mystified why we are so dedicated to such a tight relation.
[20:22:48] <Andrew Sullivan> Wes: the mic line is closed, alas
[20:22:58] <Wes George> peter's already in line, no?
[20:23:16] <Andrew Sullivan> true, that
[20:23:20] <Barry Leiba> But Wes isn't.
[20:23:33] <SM> Wes, it would be good if the RSE set the scene. Most of the discussions seems to be about "misunderstandings" about what the requirements are about.
[20:23:39] <nico> well, who here does not read rfcs in ttys?
[20:23:56] <Wes George> um.. me. that sounds horrible
[20:24:01] <Julian Reschke> nico: I don't
[20:24:02] <Barry Leiba> I don't. Haven't for MANY years.
[20:24:08] <nico> those of us who do will tend to relate the canonical format to the rendered format
[20:24:13] <tlyu@mit.edu> i read RFCs in fixed width font in emacs
[20:24:20] <SM> Julian, you use the that wg standards?:)
[20:24:24] <tlyu@mit.edu> also in terminal emulators
[20:24:34] <Barry Leiba> I hire someone to carve the RFCs onto stone tablets, and then I read those.
[20:24:41] <nico> ok, well, i do. but the point was to explain that relation
[20:24:41] <Wes George> lol @ barry
[20:24:46] <nico> since some1 asked
[20:25:04] <hildjj> lynx and links are both perfectly adequate for reading html from a TTY
[20:25:15] <Wes George> sure. but no one is saying you MUST do that
[20:25:23] <hildjj> right.
[20:25:28] <nico> no, but must we be able to?
[20:25:42] <Wes George> no. not with the canonical format
[20:25:42] <nico> that's the question i was asking
[20:25:45] <nico> ok, say so
[20:25:48] <Wes George> you are welcome to have a format that is amenable to that consumption model
[20:25:58] <nico> i would like to be able to read rfcs in ttys
[20:25:59] <Wes George> but that doesn't require limiting the canonical format
[20:26:11] <nico> i might be happy with a remderer for ttys
[20:26:15] <Tony Hansen> what are people saying who are not at the mike?
[20:26:16] <nico> right
[20:26:20] <hildjj> as well, in the prototype i did, i allowed you to swap in your own local CSS.
[20:26:34] <nico> but my guess was that the monospace font req came from ttys
[20:26:40] <Tony Hansen> e.g., what didn't Dave Crocker know?
[20:26:44] <Wes George> someone please make sure that Ms. Flanagan reads the jabber logs
[20:26:49] <hildjj> it's moot. the doc format doesn't set the font in a tty
[20:27:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Tony: that you can embed svg, it doesn't have to be external
[20:27:21] <Barry Leiba> Dave didn't know that SVG line art can be imbedded directly into the HTML.
[20:27:35] <Tony Hansen> thx
[20:27:42] <hildjj> oh. if he read my draft in HTML format, it has examples of everything in-line.
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[20:28:12] <Julian Reschke> Joe; yeah for running code
[20:28:18] <stpeter> comments relayed
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[20:28:28] <SM> Thanks, Peter
[20:28:28] <Wes George> thanks peter!
[20:28:37] <=JeffH> thanks peter!
[20:28:40] <=JeffH> :)
[20:28:51] <stpeter> =JeffH: :P
[20:28:59] <SM> By line-oriented I mena for example the text in the style guide about the Abstract being a maximum of 20 lines.
[20:29:31] <nico> line oriented to me means i could use less, or even ex to read the darned thing
[20:29:59] <hildjj> read this in links: http://cursive.net/draft-hildebrand-html-rfc-2012-07-29.html
[20:30:05] <nico> if we separate rendering from canonical format then these issues go away
[20:30:14] <nico> the xml should be the canonical format
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[20:30:16] <nico> then
[20:30:22] <nico> no?
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[20:30:28] <Wes George> that's a good example - this is like requiring the actors in a TV show to wear black, white, and grey because some folks don't want to purchase a color TV set
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[20:30:43] <SM> nico, you mean the published format?
[20:30:43] <Wes George> nico ++
[20:30:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: RFC Editor Requirements
[20:31:09] <hildjj> toolchain is here: https://github.com/IETF-Formatters/html-rfc
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[20:36:01] <nico> i' written my own tools
[20:36:07] <nico> i've
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[20:36:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Requirements to Retire
[20:36:39] <nico> i've used plain text with proper vim settings and a script to paginate and slap on boilerplate
[20:36:58] <nico> i' written a LyX to xml2rfc converter
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[20:37:23] <nico> i am not fond of nroff, but if i had been using it i too would be reluctant to drop it
[20:38:11] <nico> my lyx converter is XSLT 2.0
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[20:39:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Thoughts on existing proposals
[20:39:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Next Steps
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[20:40:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
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