IETF
rfcform@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, 31 July 2012< ^ >
stpeter has set the subject to: RFC Format BoF, IETF 83
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[17:31:08] stpeter has set the subject to: RFC Format BoF, IETF 84
[17:32:11] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Are we in the right room? I expected more people.
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[17:34:02] <stpeter> does anyone have audio yet via streaming or meetecho?
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[17:35:03] <stpeter> Lorenzo Miniero: by the way, I receive a Forbidden error at http://www.meetecho.com/ietf84/ :)
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[17:35:47] stpeter has set the subject to: RFC Format BoF, IETF 84 | audio at http://ietf84streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf846.m3u
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[17:44:51] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> RFC20 is the one on ASCII encoding for networks...
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[17:44:57] <mrex-ietf> John Klensin's proposal sounds good to me.
[17:45:07] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> So isn't that something we should upgrade for UTF8 ?
[17:45:10] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> :)
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[17:46:43] <stpeter> (well, for reading ancient Greek :)
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[17:47:00] <barryleiba> Some of us are old enough to be native speakers.
[17:47:07] <barryleiba> (Pas moi....)
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[17:47:46] <Alessandro Amirante> Meetecho is at www.meetecho.com/ietf84/rfcform
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[17:49:07] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: HTML for RFCs
[17:49:25] <mrex-ietf> As John has described, being able to display a gylph is only a very first step of a long journey -- being able to unambiguously recognize and tell apart a Unicode glyph from some 30000 other glyphs is a non-solvable problem
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[17:50:08] <mrex-ietf> in particular because several glyphs were explicitly made to look the same.
[17:50:08] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 2: Topics
[17:50:10] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: Applicability
[17:50:39] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 4: HTML Meta-Data
[17:50:48] <stpeter> mrex-ietf: that would argue for using the Unicode code points themselves, not pictures of them, since at that point you could at least "view source"
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[17:52:08] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 5: CSS Queries
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[17:54:15] <mrex-ietf> changing the background color of text or changing the line spacing of a paragraph is something that I-D & RFC authors MUST NOT fiddle with at all, this are issues of style over which the RFC Editor should have *FULL* control (i.e. nothing like that should be part of the submission format, there should only be semantic tagging)
[17:54:49] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 6: CSS Query Example
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[17:55:58] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 7: Tooling
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[17:58:58] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 8: Editing Experience
[17:59:01] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 9: How much HTML5?
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[18:04:02] <hta> actually I believe the most common lookup tool used with RFCs is google search....
[18:04:08] π¥ wonders if google counts as grep
[18:04:14] <dyork> :-)
[18:04:33] <hta> google search finds text in PDF just fine....
[18:04:52] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Goole IS the G in rep
[18:05:16] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Google really eliminates parsing
[18:06:14] <mrex-ietf> When "restricted HTML" was orignially proposed, I was thinking more of something very close to XML, such as this here: https://technotes.googlecode.com/git/falsestart.html
[18:06:24] <hta> Phil, Google really centralizes parsing.
[18:07:57] stpeter is starting to get annoyed about people not identifying themselves at the mic :)
[18:08:10] <m&m> +1
[18:08:11] <barryleiba> Ross now.
[18:08:14] <barryleiba> Cullen before.
[18:08:23] <stpeter> ah yes, that's Ross
[18:08:27] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> hta, that is better
[18:08:27] <barryleiba> Paul Hoffman coming up.
[18:08:30] <Alessandro Amirante> Presentation stopped
[18:08:40] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: A proposal for RFC formats and process
[18:08:44] <mrex-ietf> Assessing the feasability before it has been in use for 10 years looks like a bad idea
[18:08:47] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> only you have a c where an e should be
[18:08:49] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 2: It’s a short draft
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[18:10:39] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: Canonical format
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[18:11:51] <resnick> Ted is fickle.
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[18:12:07] <mrex-ietf> getting "stable tooling" for 30 years with any of the fancy formats such as HTML5 is extremely unlikely to happen
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[18:13:13] <mrex-ietf> getting support for a non-trivial piece of software for 10+ years is close to non-existent in the OSS space
[18:13:19] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Being able to do things like search for all the drafts that rely on a particular protocol field is really hard with grep, easy with metadata
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[18:13:35] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 4: Other formats that will be published
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[18:15:32] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 5: Making it better for RFC readers
[18:16:00] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 6: Input to the RFC series
[18:16:01] <mrex-ietf> PDF/A is a reasonable archival format, since there is enough momentum behind it -- it was defined and is being used by lots of other organizations with archival requirements.
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[18:16:22] <mrex-ietf> phil: there are already 600 RFCs where grepping on the TEXT is the only option that works
[18:16:31] <mrex-ietf> s/600/6000/
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[18:17:09] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 7: XML vs. HTML, my view
[18:18:41] <mrex-ietf> XML is *MUCH* better, because authors accustomed to HTML will be extremely tempted to mess with the output and eye candy when using regular HTML, whereas using XML helps to keep the authors focuse on semantic metadata (instead of eye candy metadata)
[18:18:59] <hta> People who call WikiMarkup a "simplified format" have not written many Wikipedia articles....
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[18:19:49] <Lars> am i the only person who remains unconvinced that we actually need ANY change?
[18:20:00] <π√> Awash in tools
[18:20:44] <hta> drowning in tools. All of which have interesting bugs.
[18:21:36] <π√> I was thinking that being awash in something is not really a good thing
[18:21:53] <mrex-ietf> Having exactly one tool that does the job will be MUCH MORE reasonable than having 100+ tools that all behave differently and create different output and will fall out of maintenance in a year (be superseded with a yet another tool or new version that again behaves differently and creates different output)
[18:22:18] <resnick> "Two canonical formats". That's twice as unique! ;-)
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[18:22:41] <stpeter> :)
[18:22:53] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> mrex −10^54
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[18:23:50] <stpeter> hey Paul, in that instance those people can find a co-author!
[18:23:52] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> It has taken us 20 years to agree that we want to throw nroff in the trashcan. The idea that we are going to chase the flavor of the month after that is nonsense
[18:24:39] <Alessandro Amirante> Presentation stopped
[18:24:46] <Jonathan Lennox> If someone wants to be like Neil Stephenson and submit to the RFC Editor documents written longhand with a quill pen, and the RFC Editor will put up with it, why not?
[18:24:51] <mrex-ietf> actually I do not see an agreement to throw nroff in the trashcan.
[18:25:08] <Jonathan Lennox> The input format is something given to a human
[18:26:13] <mrex-ietf> that the RFC-Editor will no longer go through nroff intermediate format is something entirely seperate from continued support of an nroff submission format
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[18:28:28] <mrex-ietf> a lot of the discussion is "what requirements will ensure that nroff gets killed in the process", whereas it should be "what features are really necessary and how can we reassonably support them
[18:28:46] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Where is he going with this?
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