IETF
rfcform@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, 27 March 2012< ^ >
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[15:13:35] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: RFC Formats How hard could it be?
[15:13:47] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: RFC Formats How hard could it be?
[15:14:17] <nevil.brownlee> John Levine presents - how hard could it be?
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[15:19:02] <Klensin> When I wrote my PhD thesis, I don't think nroff had been invented yet :-) (classic, Saltzer, runoff on the other hand...)
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[15:23:01] <Randall Gellens> Would you rather we spend time fiddling with text and figures, or debugging our XML?
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[15:24:21] <hildjj> what is a dumb terminal? is vt220 still a target for us?
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[15:24:34] <hildjj> or does a web browser count now?
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[15:25:24] <nevil.brownlee> Larry Masinter starts
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[15:26:17] <Klensin> @ hildjj:TTY38 and VT52, thank you :-( Oh, and IBM 1050s and 2741s, which, with the right ball, display page-formatted ASCII really well (at the cost of trees)
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[15:26:28] <hildjj> EBCIDIC?
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[15:27:12] <hildjj> (sorry EBCDIC)
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[15:28:15] <Klensin> @hildjj: ASCII, actually. Needs the right typeball -- what went to the device was pairs of {shift, rotate} codes in any event -- not what we would recognize as a CCS.
[15:28:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Draft
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[15:29:01] <hildjj> so, links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_(web_browser)
[15:29:10] <hildjj> or lynx.
[15:29:23] <hildjj> should work on any of those terms just fine.
[15:29:41] <pcl> I'd argue that users also need to link to documents and sections within documents and process RFCs with semantic awareness
[15:30:57] <Lorenzo Miniero> FYI, a Meetecho room is available to remotely attend this session: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf83/rfcform
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[15:32:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> for a nearly realtie audio feed: rtsp://srv137.conf.meetecho.com/8880010.sdp
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[15:32:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> *realtime
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[15:32:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Principles
[15:32:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Incremental improvements
[15:32:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[15:32:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Lightning proposal: One Canonical, Many
[15:33:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> Paul Hoffman presenting
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[15:33:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: What
[15:33:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Why
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[15:34:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: How: Non-ASCII
[15:35:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: How: Art
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[15:35:54] <Martin Thomson> U+1F4A9
[15:36:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: How: Other files
[15:36:43] <hildjj> mt: heh.
[15:36:53] <hildjj> i had just sent that to richard.
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[15:38:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[15:38:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: RFC Baby Steps
[15:38:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> Tony Hansen presenting
[15:38:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Current Restrictions
[15:38:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Alternate Versions Currently Supported
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[15:39:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Unicode Support
[15:39:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Several Proposals in the Past
[15:40:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: A Modest Proposal
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[15:41:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Tool Changes
[15:42:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[15:42:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: 7 minutes on draft-ash-alt-formats and u
[15:42:51] <Lorenzo Miniero> Yaakov Stein presenting
[15:42:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: draft-ash-alt-formats Problem Statement
[15:44:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Examples
[15:44:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Examples (cont.)
[15:44:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: ASCII art on an iPhone
[15:45:16] <sophie.nachman> ASCII not readable on Smartphone
[15:45:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: draft-ash-alt-formats Proposed Experimen
[15:45:52] <hildjj> https://github.com/hildjj/pdu2html
[15:45:57] <hildjj> meant to send that to the list.
[15:46:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Another solution
[15:47:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: (La)TeX
[15:48:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: LaTeX is easy
[15:48:13] <Randall Gellens> I used to use TeX for everything (never bothered with LA TeX)
[15:48:38] <Randall Gellens> TeX is a sweet tool for those obsessed with getting the details exactly right
[15:49:27] mnot believes we can transform XML2RFC to TEX with XSLT, so sure.
[15:49:38] <John Klensin> Indeed. And LaTeX is an odd mixture between formatting and generic markup. I certainly would not want to turn either into a requirement
[15:49:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
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[15:52:40] <John Klensin> Mic: People should remember that we have had fierce arguments about what appears in page headers and footers. For better or worse, they would disappear with unpaginated documents (or we'd need to invent a kludge of some sort)
[15:53:36] <mnot> do not mandate a tool chain, please
[15:53:58] <Wes George> john - what value are the headers and footers?
[15:54:34] <Wes George> the things that I see in the header and footer are a page number, the draft title, author and expiration date
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[15:55:51] <mnot> XML is not what people read the documents in; it's a production format
[15:56:51] <John Klensin> @Wes: I might agree that they don't have much value, but we've had long and horrible arguments about what goes in the upper left of the first page, how many authors are listed in footer lines, whether company name appear on the first page or just in contact info, what is an appropriate show title and long long it can be, etc. From one point of view, getting rid of all of that would be an advantage. But it would give us the "opportunity" to decide where that material goes, if anywhere.
[15:57:31] <Wes George> it's all duplicated elsewhere was my point
[15:58:01] <John Klensin> @Wes: actually not true any more.. but those are details
[15:58:02] <Wes George> headers can remain on the beginning of the doc as they are today, and then the rest is simply duplicates
[15:58:39] <Martin Thomson> arguments about the content of footers and headers is in two parts: what is seen (presentation) and what the values are for metadata. the two being overloaded leads to an inflated sense of how much "debate" there is.
[15:58:40] <pcl> does pdf/a always pass the grep test?
[15:59:03] <Wes George> Martin +1
[16:00:17] <Martin Thomson> let's not talk about encodings, let's make sure that the requirement is for Unicode, not UTF-8
[16:01:26] <stpeter> if you want your stuff relayed to the microphone, please prepend with MIC
[16:01:33] <Martin Thomson> I didn't use "mic:" because I didn't think that it was worth airing
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[16:01:52] <mnot> Right. It's not "cheating" to use jabber if you're in the room.
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[16:02:13] <Martin Thomson> part of the point of having a jabber room is to lower the bar a little - you don't consume air time
[16:02:39] <stpeter> for sure
[16:02:47] <stpeter> nice little backchannel here
[16:02:49] <nevil.brownlee> ok - but thought it was a point wirth making
[16:03:02] <mnot> The old RFCs haven't been updated to the new document headers, etc.
[16:03:07] <mnot> why would their formats be updated?
[16:03:16] <Cullen Jennings> Peter use your own judgement if this helps the conversation or when it would be the right time to say this but … by far the most important thing to me is ability to have good diff tool. That is so critical to rapid development of specs. The W3C does not have that and it is very painfull.
[16:03:28] <Martin Thomson> yeah, a backport requirement is a terrible idea
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[16:04:37] <Wes George> well, I think that there's some value in backport if it means removing what is broken in the current ones. Similar to my comments at the mic - the LPR formatting makes it hard to read old ones. This isn't just a problem for new documents
[16:05:14] <mnot> Why is everyone talking about PDF and no one talking about HTML?
[16:05:28] <stpeter> Cullen, agreed on diffs
[16:05:29] <Martin Thomson> it's the elephant
[16:05:51] <stpeter> HTML output FTW, but IMHO not as an authoring tool
[16:05:51] <SM> Because of PDF/A
[16:05:55] <Yves Lafon> @mnot you mean HTML and SVG and MathML in utf-8 ? (to cover all uses cases)
[16:06:09] <Yves Lafon> (ie: html5)
[16:06:14] <mnot> peter: yes, of course, but if people want to author in HTML, why not?
[16:06:43] <mnot> if we just decide on html as the canonical format, people can use whatever tool they want to to generate it -- as long as it adheres to the conventions, stylesheets, etc. that we decide.
[16:07:11] <Wes George> how many wysiwyg editors do you know that produce *clean* html that would actually adhere?
[16:07:17] <Wes George> :-/
[16:07:26] <pcl> highly limited subset of HTML5 + an editor-provided (and possibly externalized) css stylesheet seems like it'd be pretty elegant
[16:07:27] <mnot> does anyone currently use a wysiwyg editor to produce RFCs?
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[16:07:28] <Martin Thomson> I suspect that a sufficiently constrained profile of HTML will address the "wish list" that is here.
[16:07:40] <Klensin> Hmm. Meetecho lost a comment...
Mic: One issue not mentioned in Tony's UTF-8 presentation is that we have no way to guarantee adequest rendering and font availability. We can get around that by being really careful (perhaps more careful than Tony's slides suggest -- RFC 5137 provides some discussion of doing that manually), but it does mean extra effort that should not be underestimated by "just use UTF-8"
[16:07:46] <mnot> I think wysiwyg is a red herring requirement
[16:07:54] <Cullen Jennings> @mnot: yes
[16:07:55] <rbarnes> tracking == svn diff
[16:08:05] <rbarnes> mnot: +1
[16:08:06] <Wes George> @mnot only because we don't have an acceptable one today. That's not a good thing
[16:08:06] <pcl> word track-changes is horribly broken
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[16:08:14] <Yves Lafon> wes, at W3C we are producing HTML from an XML file (a bit like xml2rfc), but there is also a tool in javascript that does that without the need of any tools, makes the editing less painful
[16:08:20] <stpeter> do we do a lot of equations?
[16:08:29] <rbarnes> ascii art equations!
[16:08:39] <stpeter> maybe I'm just an apps guy, but Unicode codepoints are more important to me
[16:08:44] <SM> Peter, rarely
[16:08:44] <mnot> data uris!
[16:08:47] <Martin Thomson> ascii art graphs, try that one some time
[16:09:16] <mnot> I'm genuinely confused as to why we're making this so hard for ourselves.
[16:09:29] <rbarnes> ascii art graphs: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-geopriv-uncertainty-06
[16:09:31] <Cullen Jennings> +1 mnot
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[16:09:40] <Randall Gellens> I love being able to use any diff tool I'm fond of at the moment
[16:09:44] <rbarnes> mnot; +2
[16:10:02] <rbarnes> there are so many existing, good, fleshed out document formats, we do not need to invent another
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[16:10:13] <SM> Mark, too many IETF folks in the room ;-)
[16:10:17] <mnot> indeed.
[16:10:27] <Klensin> Mic: See comment above. Also note that some standards bodies, including ITU and some ISO NBs, used MSWord
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[16:10:37] <hildjj> blorg.
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[16:10:52] <rbarnes> hildjj: +1
[16:10:57] <sophie.nachman> what is the outcome of the BOF then?
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[16:11:10] <hildjj> sophie.nachman: this was a start to the conversation
[16:11:12] <Randall Gellens> Popular formats are great if you don't care about longevity, grep, diff
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[16:11:19] <resnick> Is the Greek χ not a stop? It's not חַ.
[16:11:24] <Klensin> @sophie: Giving heather a better sense of the options and considerations.
[16:11:24] <Martin Thomson> has anyone actually _used_ msword for standards? do you know how much work it is to edit a 3GPP document? big fat no.
[16:11:25] <nevil.brownlee> RSE has received lots of useful input
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[16:12:40] <Klensin> @Martin: Sadly, yes.
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